Interview With Aunt Dot: Transcript
“What’s the difference between soul and classic soul? For that matter, what’s the distinction between soul and R&B?”
Such questions rarely have definitive answers. And maybe somewhat frustratingly, the answers will vary depending on whom you ask. But the beauty is in the intriguing discussions that follow, in trying to get to those answers.
The above question turned into the beginning of “The Black Music Discussion.” That discussion was continued with both my dad and my aunt Dorothy Brown in November 2023. (I plan to interview more friends and family members on this topic in 2024.)
Growing up in the ‘50s and ‘60, Aunt Dot enjoyed the soul & R&B of the generation before myself and DLT. Also, Dot is one of my personal musical inspirations. She is a musician, married a fellow musician, and raised herself a family of musicians.
With some edits, and a little paraphrasing for clarity, the transcript of our 30-minute interview is below:
Terry: The other day, DLT asked me: “What’s the difference between soul music and classic soul, and the difference between soul and R&B?” And so I put on my thinking cap, and came up with the best answer I knew.
One interesting thing we talked about was this idea of “musical DNA.” It's not a real term, or something that you learn in school. But the idea behind it is this: If I have a musical identity that I grew up with, where did it come from? And we both agreed that for most of us in my generation, our musical identity or DNA came from the music that our parents listened to when we were growing up, you know? So then I got to thinking: Well, what about the generation before us? Because, you know, Grandma and Granddad, they didn't listen to music on the hi-fi.
Dot: They didn't, they didn't. But go on…
Terry: For me growing up, being raised by Grandma and Granddad, I kinda had to find my own musical sources…my own musical influences. Because, ya know, they listened to church hymns. They were busting out hymns on the piano and stuff.
I did get that from them. But then there's the whole rest of it….where do I get that from? And so, I remember being seven, eight, nine years old, carrying around a transistor radio. Just listening to whatever came on that interested me. A lot of my musical identity came from that.
And then, when I was between the ages of ten and 12, a big part of my musical identity came from the music my dad used to listen to, whenever I would go visit him. Or…the music that Ray would bring home during the time that he was living back at the house.
In fact, Ray was the one who introduced me, in a big way, to Prince…who’s been my musical hero ever since. But Ray was the one who brought home the album that got me into Prince. [1999, at age 12.] To him, it probably isn't that big a deal, because he was just buying another album from the record store. But for me, it was a life changing thing. [Laughter.] And so, that's how I came into my own musical identity. But how did my dad come into his? How did Ray come into his? And how did you come into yours?
Dot: Yeah. Well, you know, it’s interesting that you would put it like that, because Momma and Daddy, they didn't listen to…well, I can't say they didn't listen to the hi-fi. But they did like the variety shows in my day, and a lot of them had music. I remember the musicians, and the songs they sang would be some of the songs that dad used to play on the piano. It's amazing.
I can't remember how old I was when Daddy bought the first piano, but Maxine and I were talking about this. I didn't understand how a new piano could come into the house, and that be the first time I knew that Daddy knew anything about music, or that he could play the piano.
And nobody else was interested in [the piano] but me. It seemed that way, because Daddy would play these songs…“Sentimental Journey” [Doris Day, 1945] and some other songs. I can't remember them all now. But I used to know them all, because he taught them to me. And I would just sit there and listen to him play until, I guess, he got tired of me sitting there. Then he would call me [to the piano] start teaching me the songs he knew.
Then he and Momma decided to give me piano lessons, which is why I learned how to play the piano…because I was the one interested in doing it. So a lot of the music I liked first came from them…the songs that they heard. [My husband] Donald is sometimes surprised when he's playing some of these jazz songs that I know that the lyrics to. But I know the lyrics because they were songs Daddy used to sing.
Do you remember the song “Secret Love”? [Doris Day, 1953.] (‘Once I had a secret love’…oh, I can't even sing it anymore.) There were a lot of different songs that Daddy would play or that [he and Momma] would listen to. Momma loved Nat King Cole…and a lot of things he sang kind of affected me. So, I think that was my first identity.
Of course, I also had older siblings. I remember sneaking and listening to your dad's collection, because he had Jimmy Smith, an organ player I used to love. And then he had some R&B, like Smokey Robinson & The Miracles, The Temptations, and some of the others. I would sneak and play them when he wasn't around. So that formed part of my musical identity, too.
But I think that's mostly it…the music that we listened to in our day. Then of course, being part of the band later in high school helped form another part of my musical identity.
Terry: It's interesting, all the different ways that people come into music, and the different reasons, and all that.
Dot : Yeah. Like Ray. Maxine and I were still in high school, and Ray was traveling and performing with different people. I remember their group rehearsing in the living room…and the kids from the neighborhood coming down into the yard to hear them rehearse. Those kinds of things determine what you like, as far as music is concerned.
Terry: Today, I talked to a friend of mine who's younger than me—like in his 20s, young enough to be my son. [Hah!] I asked him how he came into his own musical identity and whatnot. Because he's a musician, and he's really big into music. He was basically like, "Whatever my dad was listening to, that's what I would listen to. But at the same time, there's a lot of stuff I listened to that he never did.”
Each person forms their own identity, you know? And you start off somewhere and then just go from there. My friend brought up how interesting it would be for him to hear a discussion about all the different ways people come into music, and how different people form their identity…not just what songs they like.
Regarding D, the friend who’s the main contributor to my blog—and who asked the original question—she’s a music lover. And I can tell that her interest in music is more along the lines of, “I love this music for X different reasons.” And I do too…I’ve always been that type of music lover too. But in recent years, it’s different for me. I don’t know if it's because I've gotten older, or gotten bored, or what, but there's a much broader range of the musical things I care about, these days.
It used to be that I cared mostly about the sound of the music, what it did for me emotionally, and all that. Nowadays, I care a lot more about the story behind the music, the history of music, the politics behind the music, and whatnot. Psychoacoustics…what [music] does inside your brain. Stuff of that nature.
Dot: Yeah? Well, I don't know that I get that deep into it. But there was a lot of ‘message music’ when we were growing up through the civil rights era. Especially in the late ‘60s, into the ‘70s, you had a lot of message music, like “What's Going On” with Marvin Gaye. If you listen to Curtis Mayfield, he addressed a lot of things, which is kinda funny considering the time…some of the things that he would say, even.
But [our son] Donny probably knows more of it than I do. It's interesting that my kids, especially Donny, know a lot more of the groups and musicians of that era than I do. Now, I might know the song because I recognize [it]. “Oh, yeah, I grew up listening to that…I know what that is.” Although I might not even know who played it. But he will. He'll know exactly who played it and everything. So that kinda helped him form his [own musical identity].
But of course, my kids grew up listening to rap and all that…so they have a whole different history. I say a different history. But like your friend said, part of my history…and then their own. Unfortunately, I was not one who could get into this new stuff. [Laughing.] I tried some of it, but it's harder, you know.
Terry: Actually, I think [my dad] might have been more into rap music than I was, back in the day. Because I wasn't really into a whole lot of rap, and he was telling me stuff like, “Well, I was into this rapper, and I was into that one. But I didn't like rap at first, because it seemed too macho.” This was, I think, during the period when he was back in college. And so, he and Christina were at Memphis State at the same time…and she was hipping him to a lot of stuff.
Dot: Oh! Now, Christina has a weird collection of music herself. But she probably drew from a lot of different sources. Yeah, I was surprised to see how much your dad was into rap music. He definitely knew more about it than I did, but I just couldn't get in to most of it. Put it this way: every now and then, I might hear something that sounds okay to me, but it still wouldn't be my choice to listen to it. Yeah.
Terry: You and [uncle] Donald have raised up a whole family of musicians…so I know a lot of their musical identity came directly from y’all. [Laughs.]
Dot: Yeah, it did! And the era of music that we grew up with, our kids also grew up with it, because that's what we listened to. So even now, name almost any Stevie Wonder song from the 60s and 70s, and Keith could play it for you. And recent stuff too, of course. But I'm just saying, they like a lot of the artists that we liked. Such as The Temptations, and not just those artists; some of them I can't even think of right now. Bootsy Collins, and all those people…[our kids] know more about them than I do. I know the music…so they do, too.
Donald felt like they all needed to at least have taken piano lessons. Whether they stuck to it or not, he wanted them to have that basic thing. Well, Keith stuck to it, because that's what he does now. Cynthia, as far as playing, likes more classical music; and as far as listening, she likes all types of music.
Donny, of course, was more into rap for a long time…I think he and Kenny both. But now Donny likes a lot of the old R&B stuff. He really goes back and listens to that.
Terry: So…to answer my friend’s question, I had to look up stuff. Because there's a historical aspect to this, and I didn’t want to get my answers wrong. But you grew up closer to that [classic] era of music than I did. So what’s your take on soul music versus classic soul? Because when she started breaking down all that stuff, my whole thing was, “It’s just all R&B, right?”
Dot: Well, that's what I was going to say. To me, soul and R&B were about the same thing, when we were growing up. I don't know if I ever really made a distinction. The blues was different because you could hear it. But I just I don't know that there's really a distinction between [soul and R&B]. Technically, there may be, for some people. If you talk to Donald, he might have a different answer. But to me, they were about the same thing.
Terry: Yeah. One thing about writing about music is, I end up doing a lot of research around it—just to make sure I got all my facts right, and that I'm not misinterpreting things. And one thing I'm starting to get more into is the whole “fact finding” thing. I guess that was part of why I started my blog, and one reason I call it the The Rabbit Hole. Because once I start getting deep into some topic, I tend to “go down the rabbit hole” of trying to find out everything I can about it.
Some of those questions that people ask me, from time to time—like, “What genre is this,” and whatnot—I’ll do my research and then discover that there's not really a definitive answer, you know? And so, [the answer] kinda depends on what your experience is.
Dot: Yeah. That's what I don't know. Donald might be more discriminating, as far as what he felt was soul and R&B, because he's into a lot of different types of music. Of course, he brought the influence of jazz to me. Although, your dad had a few jazz albums that I would listen to, back then. But Donald brought that influence.
Terry: What all kinds of music have you been into?
Dot: Well…as I said, the music that I like is mostly R&B, of course. And then I like some jazz. I like some of what people call “classics.” I knew I wasn't going to think of them. [Pause.] Umm…I can't think of one.
Terry: Classics, as in classic soul, or just classical music…or what?
Dot: I'd say classic pop. Like “Moon River” [Audrey Hepburn, 1961] and “Sentimental Journey.” Daddy used to sing some of those songs. And I can think of other things that he used to sing. But I like those kinds of songs. And just different things. I like certain blues…that influence. But I've never been into rock!
Terry: Oh, yeah?
Dot: Nnno. [Laughing.] Hard rock is even worse for me. Because I did not like early Prince. And Prince is very talented…but I didn't like early Prince. Later Prince, I began to like. But early Prince….no. I even like some country music. Even, what’s the guy’s name, Kenny Rogers. Those were some of the singers that I did like.
Terry: I've started writing an essay that includes some of the comments my dad made. They were, more or less, general comments. But he also told me that, back then, when he was coming up, a big influence on him was WDIA and WLOK.
Dot: The black radio stations….yeah!
Terry: I assume that was a big influence for all of y’all?
Dot: Yeah. Because, being younger, I don't think I even knew there were other radio stations—that played music that I wanted to listen to. [Laughs.] And the transistor radio helped a lot, because then you were able to take your music with you, wherever you went. You take it outside and listen to it…and you didn't have to bug your parents.
Although, Momma and them never seemed to be irritated by the music we listened to. I don't know how it was when you guys (you and Chris) were growing up. But I’ve never known them to say, “Hey, cut off that junk!” They just never seem to be bothered by the music we listened to.
Terry: No, they didn't say anything about the music I listened to, either. Now, I don't remember how much I listened to out loud [laughing]…but they never said anything about my music.
Dot: Yeah…that’s interesting. But did you talk to your dad? Did you talk to Ray?
Terry: I haven't got around to talking to Ray yet. But I intend to talk to Ray. I intend to talk, at some point, to Donald. And maybe even some of the kids, too.
Dot: Okay, great. Because when I think about the influence, I forgot about…Momma's brothers. They had really nice voices. Uncle Walter and Uncle Archie. And I remember them singing. I guess they must have sang gospel. Maybe they had a gospel group…I’m not sure. But I just remember them having really nice voices, and it seemed like they were singing gospel…the two of them together. And I think Ray said they gave him his first amp, or guitar, or something.
But instead of telling about Ray…I’ll let you ask Ray. [Laughs.]
Terry: That's cool. Like I said, this will most likely turn into a series. Today, I had lunch with a friend, and he was like, “You should do this as a podcast!” And I'm like, “Let's take it one step at a time.” [Laughs.]